Overlooked: Sonar and Navy »
Posted by: Dakota 2 months agoLast week, the Supreme Court agreed to review the case of Winter v. NRDC, a case ostensibly about the Navy's use of sonar during military training exercises, but in reality about the extent of President Bush's power in influencing court decisions.
Read Full Story at newsquake.netscape.com
Join the Discussion 
+ Add Comment
Comments So Far: 55
-
0%
bigurn2 months ago
Sonar used in active mode will find a target, but will show the target where the sound waves are coming from. The Navy rarely uses active sonar except in actual hunting exercises, and usually from a sonar drone and not a ship. The most common sonar is passive arrayed sonar, which collects sound and doesn't emit it.
The evidence thus far is not conclusive, and is clouded by our own lack of understanding of the behavior of whales. The 9th District essentially pronounced the Navy guilty without any scientific evidence.
Certainly there needs to be more studied here, and certainly we should think about national security. China is quietly building the world's largest sub fleet, and they are a world power.
Good article here: http://www.holology.com/whale.html
Reply-
0%
injest2 months ago
Good link big, I noticed it was updated June 2008, strange they left "Chinese sub pops up middle of U.S. Navy exercise" out. Guess it didn't fit their narrative.
"The pervasive diesel sub threat propounded by the Navy seems unlikely.
Although they are stealthy when using electric power underwater they must surface to run very loud diesel generators to recharge their batteries.
This tactical role suits most countries such as Iran or China fine but the threat they pose to American forces would seem to be rather limited, basically the unlikely possibility of a stealthy rogue sub sneaking up on an American carrier battle group patrolling foreign waters.
"unlikely possibility of a stealthy rogue sub sneaking up on an American carrier battle group"
Reply-
0%
injest2 months ago
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
By MATTHEW HICKLEY
Last updated at 00:13 10 November 2007
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
Reply
-
-
0%
Dionys2 months ago
"The evidence thus far is not conclusive, and is clouded by our own lack of understanding of the behavior of whales. The 9th District essentially pronounced the Navy guilty without any scientific evidence. "
Isn't this what Creationists say about Evolution? The evidence is fairly conclusive. When the Subs use active radar, whales, porposes, dolphins, and other cetaceans tend to beach themselves in the vicinity or act extremely out of character in dangerous ways.
The danger, though, isn't in that (so much) but it is in the fact that BushCo tried to overturn a legal ruling based on the assertion of the idea of a 'unitary executive.' Much like he does with every signing statement where he says he is going to violate the law without regard.
Reply-
0%
Gransater2 months ago
You're right. This really is about two separate issues.
1 - Are we harming cetatians, by using assorted technology, both in civilian and defense settings. So far the observed results would seem to indicate harm is being done. Acording to one of the articles, if they can "track a whale for 43 days in the open ocean", on a passive system, why isn't that enough in tracking capability? Put a SOSUS system strategecaly located in the Pacific and Indian oceans, and we ought to be able to do all tracking we need.
2 - The second issue is really about using the label of Homeland Security, to override established legal court procedures. It seems everytime this admin wants something, out comes the treat of Homeland Security. I think Goebels would have been extreemly proud of this admin in how it uses and emphasises the external/internal treat to demolish what our forefathers created, after long and careful thought.
Reply -
0%
injest2 months ago
"The evidence is fairly conclusive. When the Subs use active radar, whales, porposes, dolphins, and other cetaceans tend to beach themselves in the vicinity or act extremely out of character in dangerous ways."
Is there any historical data of whales, porpoises, dolphins beaching themselves before SONAR? (SONAR first used around 1916.)
Whales and others travel in "pods" doing "follow the leader", any data on
Whale traveling to close to shore becoming beached and others follow in becoming stranded as well?
Areas that have a very gentle slope to shore?
Truth is there are many reasons that whales, porpoises, dolphins beach themselves, it been happing for thousands of years.
Reply -
0%
bigurn2 months ago
I believe the evidence is that the Navy tries a sonar exercise, then at some point afterward, there is an increase in cetacean beachings. There is no direct evidence that one casues the other, so no, it is not conclusive. There could easily be another cause. If I was the President, I would favor national security issues over cetacean activity until such a connection could be proven. The Chinese will NOT concern themselves with whales, and will use our concern as an "in" to the coastlines.
Reply
-
-
-
-
0%
injest2 months ago
miklkit
"The fact that this case has made it to the Supreme Court says it's not about the rule of law, but about the usurpation of our Constitution by the career criminals in the White House."
A truly stupid statement. This case goes back to 1997. Do a little research so you know the basics of what is being said.
Reply-
0%
miklkit2 months ago
You didn't read the article, did you?
By the Navy's own estimate, 170,000 marine mammals have been affected by its sonar exercises over the last two years. The military branch still argues that the exercises are vital to training. But when the Supreme Court hears the case this fall, the justices will not weigh in on whether the dolphins and whales are being harmed. As the New York Times point outs, the court is really considering "the balance of power between the executive branch and the courts in resolving such issues. In an effort to sidestep the courts, the Bush administration invoked national security to exempt the Navy from strict adherence to the two federal environmental laws that underlay the court decisions."
Reply
-
-
-
0%
CrusaderRabbit2 months ago
This administration has totally ignored the Constitution feeling it gets a 'free pass' after 9/11 and the war in Iraq. This is just another area feel justified using the cover of 'national security.' Hopefully this election will begin to put big business, military interests and the republican power brokers in their place. Our personal freedoms, ecology and economy have been destroyed and its time for everyone to stand up and make a change on the local, state and national level.
We need to reclaim our voice in the affairs of this nation. It is time to take back the government from the fear mongers, militarists and big business. We need to take control as citizens and guide the government in our best interests, not be guided by the best interests of our government.
Reply-
-
0%
dwemm2 months ago
So why are they appealing the case to the Supremes based on an argument made by this administration? The Clintons are not arguing this, the appeal was just made.
Once again, this isn't about whales. It's about balance of power and the admin testing to see if national security issues will pass the Supreme Court-and see if the majority will rule in favor of them.
There are environmental laws that inconvenience the Bush/Cheney military establishment and they want to test the waters for later "security" related issues. They just want to see how long they can ignore congressional prerogatives.
Reply
-
-
-
0%
Cityslicker2 months ago
Must have been a slow day at Nutscape , I mean now writing stories on e-mails sent between Nutscape employees .
Whales are smart , at least smarter than this person gives them credit for .
I though the Greenies already did the "Save the Whales" campaign , must have missed that one .
Cousteau use side scanning sonar for exploring , and they are the keepers of the Seas so to speak !
Reply
Submitted By:
Dakota
A reporter for Propeller, Dakota writes the Overlooked column for the web site. If you submitted a story and feel it deserves a second look ...
Related Articles:
Why not submit a story?
Also Propping This Article
Dakota
Alexia
TimALoftis
coreyspring
capn_caveman
MidnightPrism- Helixbuilder
ciera-marie
berkeley
Ratskii
Groups Watching This
No groups are watching this story. Why not share it with your group?
