News – What if this was your shopping center? 34 people, including many children were hurt when a rocket made a direct hit on a shopping center in Ashkelon. This is what it looked like a few minutes after the attack.
This is the kind of thing that people who practice the religion of peace do to their neighbors? I can only extend my heartfelt sympathy to the citizens of Ashkelon. I pray this will stop soon.
It is when their neighbors do the same thing. It sucks, but it's been going on for... how long now?
If their neghbors did the same thing (namely, killed every Palestinian they can) there would be no Palestinians left. Please recall that these neighbors happen to have one of the five most powerful militaries on the planet.
Sorry. Flawed logic. For every Israeli killed by Palestinian extremists there are a number of Palestinians killed by the IDF or representatives of the Israeli Government (Israeli extremists).
> Sorry. Flawed logic.
Not at all. With all Palestinian complaints the number of Palestinians killed is not high enough to make them consider a peaceful alternative. Please recall that Israel could easily kill not TWO but twenty thousand or more Palestinians a day if ending the war was considered more important than saving Palestinian lives. Back in 1945 ending the war was the most important goal of the Allies. Millions of Germans and Japanese were killed in order to convince their leaders to surrender.
Instead of retaliating for this, why doesn't Israel take out the Kabah in Mecca with conventional cruise? A few Muslims might be killed, but, it would let the world know, including the Muslim world, that Mecca is touchable, and, something far worse could happen, like, the kabah later being buried in vats of pig poop from stealth bombers. Would a Muslim do five times a day of butt in the air IF they knew they were bowing to something defiled with pig poop?
The US should go after HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH with the same vengeance they did in Iraq. Maybe they'll learn then. I don't have much hope in these evil people. They certainly do not follow their religion
W should destroy their government and infrastructure and start a civil war?
" W should destroy their government and infrastructure and start a civil war?"
Israel's already taken care of that in a few ME countries.
This is horrendous. But why are you only showing 1 side?
The remorse & outrage on the attacks of Israelis are well founded & understandable. But why not the same outrage at the daily attacks by Israel into the occupied territories?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxBU-Otdefk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shvWwjMyjhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzZj889BA4A&feat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_Px5cJIyI&feat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jSCDE8UO0M&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jSCDE8UO0M&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wZ5pBPZiPU&NR=1
I can go on & on with Israeli attacks on Palestinians.
Yet ALL of your indignation is saved for the Palestinians; you refuse to see any of the attacks by Israel or the innocent Palestinians injured, maimed & killed by Israel.
It's the 1-sided reactions on both sides that keep escalating the violence.
Because this thread is about an attack on a shopping center that happened today. Speaking for myself I don't refuse to see attacks by Israel.
What you ask for just doesn't make sense. I'm really trying to get my brain around it.
It would go something like this, "the attack on the shopping center was a terrible thing, but how about the hard handed tactics of Israeli soldiers at checkpoints."
Post your stories.
>>Speaking for myself I don't refuse to see attacks by Israel.
I noticed that about you & respect you for that.
>>What you ask for just doesn't make sense. I'm really trying to get my brain around it.
Look at some of the posts here & on the YouTube site of the video. People like engineer who say "The US should go after HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH .... I don't have much hope in these evil people."
Palestinians are attacked & killed every day without any of these people showing the least bit of remorse for them or anger at Israel. Then 1 attack on an Israeli mall brings out the "nuke 'em back to the stone age" crowd.
I have family in Lebanon & friends w/family in Palestine & Israel. Every 1 of these attacks hits very close to home - on all sides. It angers me when Israel's gov't ignores the will of its people & escalates the violence. And the same w/the Palestinians' increased violence.
But the 1-sidedness here is REALLY upsetting.
It is crazy how governments don't listen to their citizens. It sickens me that my tax dollars are going to kill innocents all over the world. I'd rather it goes to schools, food, medicine and water pumps/filters. I think that'd do more to reduce terrorism then killing people.
What do you think the solution is to the Israel problem?
>>I think that'd do more to reduce terrorism then killing people.
Agree 1 MILLION percent.
>What do you think the solution is to the Israel problem?
If I knew that, I'd be God.
1 thought, tho, is to force Israel to stop expanding its settlements, to lift its blockade, & to stop targeted assassinations & wanton killings of Palestinians.
Another is to offer Palestinians the assistance we've been refusing ON THE CONTINGENCY OF NO MORE ATTACKS BY HAMAS ON ISRAEL, and assistance to track down & punish those who do attack.
Those are 2 starting points, IMO. Maybe not practical, or doable, but who knows....
What does Israel get in return? In retrospect I'm not sure that trading land for peace was a good idea. I really think that the Palestinian people need to disavow Hamas. the Hamas Charter calls for the destruction of Israel, death to Jews and no peaceful settlement.
I definitely think that the Palestinian people need to be given some sort of economic hope.
I guess the big question is whether the Palestinians will settle for anything less then the right of return? Even if israel makes peace with a new Palestine next door will the rest of her neighbors allow Israel to live in peace?
I don't know.
It further got me to thinking-
Now I think that the Palestinians have made some bad diplomatic moves in the past when they refused what was offered to them.
It appears to me, as an outside and probably biased, that the Palestinians don't want to work within the system and be part of it.
Lastly, what would any other government, the US, Germany, China, Russia or France do if a missile hit one of their shopping centers/
>>Palestinians have made some bad diplomatic moves
Slight understatement. But I'm thinking more of the attacks. When they're offered 60% of the 30% they have left, that's not much of a deal.
>>Palestinians don't want to work within the system and be part of it.
That's kind of hard when the system is rigged. They have to go to Israeli courts run by the Israeli gov't. Kind of like a black man in the '30s going to a KKK rally for help.
>>what would any other government... do if a missile hit one of their shopping centers
You can also ask what would they do if another country took over roughly 60-70% of their land, had complete military control over roads & borders, & constantly bombed & shot their citizens, as well as bulldozing homes, schools & businesses & building settlements for the occupier's citizens.
It works both ways.
> When they're offered 60% of the 30% they have left, that's not much of a deal.
It sounds like a pretty good deal to me considering that the 60% or the 30% or even the 100% NEVER were "Palestinian lands". Until the 1920 Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) and then it did not belong to ANY state until 1948 when the UN offered to create two states in Palestine, one for the Jews and another for the Arabs.
>>What does Israel get in return?
Peace.
>>I'm not sure that trading land for peace was a good idea.
But there never really was land-for-peace. Israel unilaterally left the West Bank but increased its activities in Gaza. THEN started taking Palestinian land & homes to build a wall.
>>Hamas Charter....
Hamas has publicly agreed to all past PLO/Fatah agreements, INCLUDING Israel's right to exist.
>>think that the Palestinian people need to be given some sort of economic hope.
No doubt. The longer they're stepped on, the more "terrorists" will be spawned.
>>Even if israel makes peace with a new Palestine next door will the rest of her neighbors allow Israel to live in peace?
It has treaties w/both Egypt & (I think) Jordan. Peaceful so far. & other Arab states have proposed negotiations in exchange for peace w/the Palestinians. All have been rejected by Israel.
>>I don't know.
Yep, Me neither.
> Hamas has publicly agreed to all past PLO/Fatah agreements, INCLUDING Israel's right to exist.
Only a week ago the leader of Hamas made a fool of the former US President Jimmy Carter by saying that Hamas would NEVER recognize Israel. He did not even bother wiping his behind from Carter's saliva...
By the way, BOTH the PLO/Fatah Charter AND the Hamas Charter declare that ANY settlement with Israel on ANY conditions is 'unacceptable' to the Palestinians.
> ...other Arab states have proposed negotiations in exchange for peace w/the Palestinians. All have been rejected by Israel.
Not exactly. First, these "other Arab states" declared that they "might" decide to negotiate AFTER Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 cease fire line AND recognition of the Palestinian "right of return". Second, if they were serious about their willingness to negotiate they would do just that... like Egypt and Jordan did.
The Arab states tried to use Mafia tactic ("Give me what I want and I may spare your life") and it did not work.
> 1 thought, tho, is to force Israel to stop expanding its settlements...
Very well. There were no settlements prior to 1967. There was a lot of terrorism though. Sonmething to think about, don't you agree?
> ...to lift its blockade...
...and by doing it to allow free access for terrorists into Israel, correct? Do you believe that making it easier to murder Israelis will somehow make the terrorists peaceful? Sorry but this does not make much sense to me.
> ...& to stop targeted assassinations...
One way to stop TARGETED assassinations of terrorists is to replace them by UNTARGETED KILLLINGS. This is what you're suggesting?
> ...& wanton killings of Palestinians.
Probably not. So you're telling us that Israel should let the terrorists to kill Israelis and do nothing in response... and this will somehow make them peaceful.
> Another is to offer Palestinians the assistance we've been refusing ON THE CONTINGENCY OF NO MORE ATTACKS BY HAMAS ON ISRAEL...
Back in August 2000 the Palestinians were offered a sovereign independent state together with all assistance one can hope for... and they preferred to start a terrorist war known as the Intifadah. Further, THE CONTINGENCY OF NO MORE ATTACKS BY HAMAS ON ISRAEL obviously means continuation of attacks by Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Hezbollah and many otehr big and small organizations of murderers, correct?
"1 thought, tho, is to force Israel to stop expanding its settlements, to lift its blockade, & to stop targeted assassinations & wanton killings of Palestinians."
Yabbut... ya see, that won't work, because the Palestinians, just like the Israelis, thrive on killing and war. There's fanatics on both sides that will continue killing... hell, Israeli radicals have been known to blow up Israeli buildings in protest of cease fires.
There's nothing to do but wait until there are either no Israelis, or no Palestinians... but even that isn't a guarantee, because whoever is left will just find someone else to blame their problems on and start killing THEM.
I think the fact that someone gave you a neg on this comment is indicative of what part of the problem is.
A 'neg' (or a 'pos', for that matter) suggest that that 'someone bothered to READ the statement he/she negged.
No reply means that he/she has NOTHING to say in order to disprove the statement he/she negged. In other words, a neg without a reply means "You're perfectly right and I hate it".
" No reply means that he/she has NOTHING to say in order to disprove the statement he/she negged. In other words, a neg without a reply means "You're perfectly right and I hate it"."
It seems kind of silly to assume you know the inner thoughts of everyone who votes good/bad or who does or does not respond to your message. Someone might disagree with your rhetoric or dogma, but see that it's plain you won't accept any evidence against your already solidified opinion and therefore decide not to waste time on someone who won't ever change their mind no matter how much evidence is given to them.
> Palestinians are attacked & killed every day without any of these people showing the least bit of remorse for them or anger at Israel. Then 1 attack on an Israeli mall brings out the "nuke 'em back to the stone age" crowd.
Well, you should consider a couple of things:
First, it were the Palestinians who STARTED this terrorist war back in September, 2000. Are you suggesting that they were so dumb that they did not realize that people are killed during a war?
"First, it were the Palestinians who STARTED this terrorist war back in September, 2000. "
This is the problem with America. They can hardly remember what happened two weeks ago, much less 60 years ago or a hundred years ago.
Did the Palestinians start it? Did the Israelis start it when Israel was created in 1948 and millions of Palestinians were relocated into camps?
They're both at fault for the current situation, both bombing and killing each other in large numbers (though more Palestinians die than Israelis) and both need to sacrifice their dogmatic approach to life to find a peaceful agreement that leaves *neither* party happy, but both satisfied.
> Did the Palestinians start it?
Yes, it were the Palestinian Arabs who started the last round of the Arab war against Israel back in September, 2000.
> Did the Israelis start it when Israel was created in 1948 and millions of Palestinians were relocated into camps?
No, it were the Arab states that rejected the UN Partition Resolution, started a war and lost. There were no "Millions of Palestinians" but about 600,000 Arabs who left their homes because of it. These Arabs did not know then that they were 'Palestinians' as this term was invented 20 years later. There never were and still are no camps in Israel.
> Second, if the Palestinians did not like to be attacked and killed they would try to negotiate a better deal, especially considering the fact that Israel offered them peace, a state and all kinds of assistance. If they preferred a war it means that they're happy with the results (again, I do not suggest that the Palestinians are so dumb that they're incapable to understand the link between them killing Israelis and Israelis fighting back).
Third, with all their complaints only TWO Palestinians were killed during an average day of the Intifadah. You may compare this number (TWO per day) with the number of people killed during an average day of any other recent major war and you'll realize that the Israelis are doing everything possible to save Palestinian lives.
Fourth, the will of Israeli people is to live in peace. This goal can not and will not be achieved by surrendering to terrorists.
"Fourth, the will of Israeli people is to live in peace."
Absolutely. It is absolutely the will of the Israeli PEOPLE to live in peace. It's the government that doesn't get it.
> It is absolutely the will of the Israeli PEOPLE to live in peace. It's the government that doesn't get it.
It's a pretty interesting statement. Are you going to support it by declaring that Israeli PEOPLE would gladly allow themselves murdered by terrorists so the Palestinians will live in peace WITH NO JEWS IN SIGHT or you have other ideas in mind?
Please consider that it was Israeli government that agreed to create an independent sovereign state for Palestinian Arab back in 1948 and repeated this offer ever since. It were the Palestinians and the Arab governments that rejected all these offers.
My indignation is not saved for the Palestinians...I do however have no problem condemming Hammas and other terrorist groups holding the Palestinians hostage.
Hamas tried the peaceful way by going the political route & by stopping its rocket attacks on Israel for 1 to 2 years.
It received NO aide, was the target of blockades, & was even denied its own moneys that Israel collects in the name of the Palestinians & supposedly returns to the gov't for its use.
And during that 1 to 2 years, Israel increased settlement activity, increased attacks on both the West Bank AND Gaza, and implemented an air tight blockade where no food, goods or humanitarian aid could pass, & no workers could get to their jobs.
Israel has been strangling the Palestinians for years - especially Gaza. So some of the blame for this DOES rest squarely on the Israeli gov't.
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I looks like Hammas is sending Bush a message.