85)This page is a permanent archive of the comment below and its replies.
To view this comment in the context of the full discussion for the story, use this link.
Not a member? Sign-up today!
About Propeller | Frequently Asked Questions | Help
© 2003-2008 Propeller. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy
If Hawaii voted for independence, I would not oppose it. My patriotism is defined by an adherence to the principals of democracy and the rights of self determination and not some ego trip about how big our country is. Obviously you don't feel the same way. I am not buying your assertion that Tibet is fighting for independence only because of outside agitators. Its a seperate and distinct culture for which the Chinese government has shown little to no respect. You can try to spin this all night, but at the end of the day its all bull crap. Your defending oppression and tyranny. Just be honest about it. The crimes of America don't excuse those of China so you are wasting your time pointing out the historical wrongs of my country. I have a lot of gripes with America and don't labor under any delusions about our own perfection. But to say we attack you is silly at best. How? By granting MFN status. By importing billions worth of Chinese products? I'd say you're paranoid and delusional.
I'm defending oppression and tyranny? No I'm defending a nation that I may not agree with but I will defend it if I see it victimised by a hypocritical nation that is itself, the world's primary tyrant. As for your democracy, your last two federal elections exposed exactly how mythical that is in the abstract and how dysfunctional it is in practise. To call me paranoid and delusional is rich when your country euphemistically calls wars of aggression 'pre-emptive' and thinks everybody wants to be like you.
I don't know what the acronym MFN stands for.
You don't buy my assertions of outside influences, why? Because those outside influences happen to be your country? Try this then.
World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A.
Published: October 2, 1998
The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak
Michael Backman
May 23, 2007
The government set up in exile in India and, at least until the 1970s, received $US1.7 million a year from the CIA.
The money was to pay for guerilla operations against the Chinese, notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's public stance in support of non-violence, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.
The Dalai Lama himself was on the CIA's payroll from the late 1950s until 1974, reportedly receiving $US15,000 a month ($US180,000 a year).
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-d...
The primary protest group at the relay has been Reporters Without Border. The name suggests a progressive, possibly left-wing group of independent journalists, right? Wrong. They're funded by the US government backed NED and the Free Cuba Center, the latter created by US secret services and funded by USAID. In short, the Pro-Tibetan protests are staged and US government funded. This is according to Canadian think tank, Global Research.
http://www.china.org.cn/china/Lhasa_Unrest/2008...
If the CIA and other such nefarious government groups, designed to sabotage and subvert, are able to exploit terrorist militia in various parts of the world, what makes you think you or any homegrown liberal thinker be any tougher a nut to crack and use for other agendas?
I am not the United States, and yes, you are defending tyranny and oppression. You can't weasel your way out of this one. The wrongs of America don't justify the wrongs of China in Tibet. Just be honest. I know its a stretch for you. You defend tyranny and oppression because your love of country exceeds your love of principle. There can be no other explanation.
I don't support pre-emptive war. Why do you keep evading the point? MFN is most favored nation. Now skeek, get some sleep. You're beginning to annoy me. I suspect you are an agent of China. You're paid to fulfill a propaganda function. I understand. Everyone has to eat and pay bills. But if you don't mind a little advice. You're wasting your time. You can't polish a turd. China invaded Tibet in 1951. They signed an agreement that claimed to respect the cultural integrity of Tibet and proceeded to violate it. This, and not the CIA is what started the Tibetan rebellion. Now you need your rest and your meds. Good Night.
Forever thinking from an American point of view, Hanyman? Haven't you ever heard of time zones? Not everything in this world runs on America's time. You have summed up precisely what I'm trying to point out here -- USA-centricity. Everything revolves around you.
I know China has done many wrongs. I believe your country has done far more and continues to do so without remorse except for its own losses and pains. I also believe many of those 'wrongs' you believe China has done are also fabricated or greatly exaggerated, most especially by your country. My apologies if this 'annoys' you.
And I am most definitely not paid to fulfill a propaganda function. I feel passionately about what I write here because, being a Westerner, I once thought like you but have come to understand through experience the Chinese point of view, and I have found it makes a lot of sense. Far more sense than the simplistic indoctrination of China Bad, America Good. That's typical American bullsh*t.
As opposed to what? Who doesn't have a point of view? I must remind you again, I am not the USA. What amuses me, however, is that you have wasted so much of your time and effort arguing with me. In the end, my opinion is of little consequence. USA centricity? I suppose you are just swimming in a sea of non-aligned humanity. Your opinions free from bias? Save it for the intellectually stunted. Objectivity doesn't exist within the human species. Skeek, you are amateur hour to me.
Now for time zones. Since you are such an expert. What is the reason for leap year? How long is an actual year in excess of 365 days. What is the Prime Meridian? why is it straight, and why is the international date line staggered? I have crawled all over this globe and visited many time zones. For example, Baghdad is in the same one as Moscow. Bangkok is 16 hours ahead of mine, but they don't utilize daylights savings time so half the year they are only 15 hours different but still 16 zones removes.
You claim to be a westerner who has embraced the wisdom of China. Would you care to elaborate on this? Which part? All. Communism? Maoism? Buddhism? Confucianism? Capitalism? There is no ism to which I would give my total allegiance. You have gone to great lengths to defend tyranny and oppression but are unwilling to be frank about your positions. Instead of defending their purpose, you attempt to misdirect me with allegations that America has done so also or done so more without justifying their use in China. I am sorry, but I won't and can't be distracted by such infantile tactics. You can't defend Chinas actions in Tibet without being honest and just saying that you want China to win regardless of whether they are right or not. At least then I could have a modicum of respect for your position. Your tactics aren't working, okay. We can post a thousand more times and the conclusion won't change. Admit you are a sinophile and the move on.
Sinophile? Of course. I wasn't aware that it should be something I should have to confess to or that it should also be a source of shame. In this context, however, it doesn't surprise me in the least, given the high level of vilification of China by America or the amount of hatred spewed out on these threads towards China by otherwise well-meaning Americans who can't think critically or freely for themselves.
Now if you can admit to your sinophobia we can call it even.
I am neither sinophile nor sinophobic. I have no blind love for my country or any other. That is the difference between you and me. As for spewing. Plenty of people in this forum spew contempt for our own government or haven't you noticed? There is far more conspicuous dissent in this country than in China. We have a free press and are allowed to criticize our country without fear of imprisonment. Last I checked, Chinese citizens enjoyed no such freedom. So please be a man about this and confess your love of tyranny and oppression outright rather than using "you do it worse or you do it too". That is all your arguments add up to.
To cast me in a role I have denied and argued with facts against is your choice. Stick with what you know. I'm sure you must feel safer that way.
Hanyman,
you wrote, "If Hawaii voted for independence, I would not oppose it."
What if this were financed by an intelligence agency of another country that tries to put their payee as head and does so by causing riots and wounding and killing innocent Americans? Will you say yes to that?
What if it were instigated by extra terrestrials using mind control beams bounce off the moon at an acute angle? Let's keep the hypotheticals to a minimum. I don't buy the notion that Tibet's push for independence was cause by outside agitators. Its just pure bullying and jack booted thuggery. Might makes right. Nothing more.
You don't buy it yet the facts are there. I've posted links above to verify them.
Hanyman,
You've evaded a direct answer, yet your reply says it - you can't say yes to the question. the points I raised are factual regarding Tibet, the actual situation in question. I used the phrase 'what if' not because I like to make hypotheticals, but just in response to your hypothetical 'if Hawaii ...' What you say shows the lack of basis. Your mentioning of ET is just to hide this by muddying the water.
The question answers itself. I wouldn't support outside influence as this would be contrary to the principle of self determination. I just don't accept that outside manipulation is the source of unrest in Tibet. Nice try.
The Dalai Lama himself admits to it but you deny it because it doesn't fit your cosy belief system. It is written up everywhere from Wikipedia to your mainstream press, but no, Hanyman doesn't "buy it." How pompous and elitist. You pick and choose truth to suit your own pre-determined biases, Hanyman. What you already believe to be "the truth." How convenient that must be for you.
From the New York Times link I posted above.
"The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency... "
This is willful blindness and deliberate, conscious ignorance on your part, Hanyman. Can you honestly dig your head any deeper into the sand?
What do you honestly think the CIA does? Play Santa Claus to America's favourite charities? And then say, "Go ahead kiddies, spend it on anything you like!"?