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I was in Tibet in 1987. Part of Chinas openness to talking with Tibetans includes clubbing and beating peaceful protesters into unconsciousness.
I believe your countrymen, your white, slave-owning founding fathers, did far worse to the indigenous population of your country in their efforts to establish "independence." Perhaps however that is too much in the past for you and therefore irrelevant as some comments have pointed out on these boards from time to time; despite the fact that Tibet was already part of China hundreds of years before your country was even discovered much less birthed as a nation.
More recently, I also read that peaceful Tibetan protesters were clubbed by New York City policemen outside the UN only last month. Whether they were clubbed into unconsciousness, I'm not altogether sure. I can't vouch for the sources credibility either; they are blogspots.
I also read recently that the policemen involved in the shooting case of an unarmed black man, shot on his wedding day, will not be sentenced. And then of course, there's always Iraq and Afghanistan, wars of highly dubious justifications.
This is just some of the evidence of your own nation's, and peoples', bared-faced hypocrisy.
You also failed to address the other points I have raised.
1. The slave system of Tibet under the Dalai Lamas. Is this preferable to the clubbings you claim to be an authority on because you visited Tibet in 1987? I see you make no claims to having witnessed them.
2. The Dalai Lama as an agent for the CIA. This information is easily found and has not been denied. Shouldn't you be asking yourself why, given the CIA's nefarious involvements around the world with its destructive and unsolicited interferences?
3. Your government's sponsorship of protesters, primarily Reporters Without Borders, that have sought to disrupt the Olympic Torch relay, most vocally and melodramatically in those countries that are the most interested in undermining China's emerging power - Britain, France, Japan, and of course, the United States of America.
I find the lack of curiosity in such facts unsurprising.
"I believe your countrymen, your white, slave-owning founding fathers, did far worse to the indigenous population of your country in their efforts to establish "independence."
Great sleight of hand, skeek. I've noticed that most of your time on propeller is spent defending China's policies , no matter what they may be. Your simplistic "counter-punches" pretty much label you for what you are, a shill for China.
"I also read recently that the policemen involved in the shooting case of an unarmed black man, shot on his wedding day, will not be sentenced. And then of course, there's always Iraq and Afghanistan, wars of highly dubious justifications."
Another good dodge. Completely off topic. I find your lack of intellectual integrity unsurprising.
Calling me a shill for China reveals or explains nothing, just as I could call you and most of your patriots brainwashed simpletons, even though I would have agreement from many others out here in the world.
I understand China far better than you do oldgringo. I have been there many times, and although I once thought as you do, I have realised that my views on China had been the product of indoctrination, as are yours.
I defend China because your country and your fellow indoctrinated are relentless in your attacks on it. I understand why your country does this. It is threatened by it and fears losing what control it has in every manner in this world to it. You, and many other Americans, simple follow along without question because these are the things you have been taught to believe -- you are indoctrinated.
Therefore to accuse me of lacking intellectual integrity is ludicrous. I am far more honest, questioning and critical with my intellect than you are, oldgringo.
As for what you call a dodge is an example of your country's hypocrisies. I raised the recent news of the lack of sentencing of police who shot an unarmed black man, around 50 times I might add, because this is what we in the world see of America. It's hypocrisy. This was recent, but small and seemingly insignificant in comparison to so many of your country's greatest travesties. Yet, you and your country have the gall to wag your finger in the face of every country and every person in this world that chooses to live differently and dictate to them how they should behave or face the consequences. If you want China to give up Tibet, then set the example. Give up New Mexico. You stole it anyway.
And still the silence over the points I've raised remains.
Slavery under the Dalai Lamas.
The Dalai Lama funded by the CIA.
The US government funding of free-Tibet protest groups.
Come on, oldgrino, show me your intellectual integrity now. Give me an example of what you call 'honesty.'
The fact that this thread is almost a day old and has only had 9 comments, 6 of them mine, shows quite clearly just how much intellectual integrity you and your countrymen are in truth really prepared to apply to the China/Tibet issue. Not much at all.
"I understand China far better than you do oldgringo. I have been there many times, and although I once thought as you do, I have realised that my views on China had been the product of indoctrination, as are yours."
I'm not impressed. I've been going to China regularly for about 20 years, now. I've seen the Chinese justice system at work. I've also read and heard the horror stories of Chinese justice, as you surely have, that abound in your "innocent" China.You want to talk about travesties of justice! You may think the US is worse, but I know better.
I had never said China was innocent. What I'm saying is it is being vilified and demonised by a hypocrite, the USA, pursuing its own unstated ambitions. In other words, your country is using this, amongst others, as strategies to destroy a perceived competitor and therefore a probable threat in its pursuit of global dominance. It is a standard ploy that your country has used repeatedly against Russia, Communism, the Middle East, Islam, and now China. Your country's agenda is all too transparent when it does not have an enemy, whether real or imaginary -- mostly a little of the former and a lot of the latter -- in order to promote itself as the shining pillar of goodness and virtue while advancing its own imperial agenda. I hope that's clear enough. Could your 20 year history of sojourns to China also be part of that crusade and explain your hardened resolve towards a people and nation that have been nothing but consistently threatened and indirectly attacked by your own?
This is nothing new. I don't just mean by the United States. Every country, given the opportunity, will do this at this juncture in history. Some will do worse and I'd bet a few others will do a bit better. But every country will do this if in a position that the US is in. The only really new thing about the United States in history was the fact that it didn't turn its war machine on Europe and Asia after World War II and that's really not all that new. As Rome claimed to bring civilization to the world, so the United States is claiming to bring democracy while pursuing its own agenda which is fairly imperialistic in nature. I'd like nothing more then to de-construct the "empire" myself. Not the United States. Just the empire. Will it happen? Not unless something makes it happen. That something could take another century to really happen. It could be China in about twenty years though.
So you don't misunderstand the key word in my statement is "claim" with regards to bringing democracy. It can be shouted from the hilltops but it won't be true.
More than an opportunity to inflame and aggravate a soft spot for China, I believe Tibet also has strategic value. It rests between China and India. The US would do its best to always maintain a divide between these two emerging powers. This is why it feeds nuclear technology to India, which has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Tibet is also in the Himalayas which is the source of Asia's two great rivers -- the Yangtze in China and the Gandes in India; vital water sources for both nations. As the next resource scarcity after oil will be water, Tibet is America's opportunity to keep these two nations on a short leash. The Dalai Lama is the key to this. In this light, the plot not only thickens but darkens as well. Should I say hypocrisy again?
1. "Slavery under the Dalai Lamas"
"Tenzin Gyatso was born in 1935. He was taken from his parents to an ancient Buddhist monastery in Tibet where he was groomed for the role of Dalai Lama, the political and spiritual leader of Tibet. In 1950, the Chinese government invaded Tibet. Only 15 years old, the Dalai Lama and his aides tried to cooperate with the Communist invaders, but brutal acts of repression forced him to flee to Dharamsala, India, in 1959. He has lived in exile ever since."
...still looking for credible evidence to back up your assertions...seems most of the stories come from China and claim it is his "religion" that places people into slavery. Cool stuff, though.
It seems you haven't been looking very hard. Here's something from the credible British newspaper, The Guardian. This must be what your intellectual integrity calls "coming from China."
"Slavery existed in Tibet into the 1950s. Five percent of the population constituted the ruling class, among others the secular and spiritual nobility in the monasteries. Ninety percent of the population were serfs and five percent were slaves. The feudal rulers opposed reforms and with the support of the CIA, promoted separatism."
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1288tibet.html
Here's something I found interesting.
This is the Google description for the "tibet slavery wikipedia" search.
History of Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search ...... the Chinese government also abolished slavery and the Tibetan serfdom. ...
en.wikiped... - 198k - Cached - Similar pages
On opening up Wikipedia, however, the phrase "the Chinese government also abolished slavery and the Tibetan serfdom" as clearly stated above, cannot be found. The conclusion is it has been recently removed which raises questions of its own.
I don't doubt you'll find some kind of mileage in that.
If you have a hard copy, home encyclopedia you should also be able to find concrete affirmation that Tibet was indeed a feudal slave system. You may wish to check that your encyclolpedia was not printed and published in Beijing. You could also try your local public library, provided pages and books weren't removed under the Patriot Act.
Wikepedia essentially says the same thing, though not the same numbers are given.
Hypocrisies? Give anyone or any nation enough time and it will become a hypocrite!
Possibly, however in America it appears to be a necessary part of foreign policy. Although with a wishy-washy Brown in Britain, a subservient Merkel in Germany, and Sarkozy, a feisty US sycophant in France, it is echoed without shame in Europe as well.
Do you hear me justifying the crimes of my ancestors? What is your point exactly? Why don't you just say outright that you support oppression and brutalization of others when it serves your ends? Get a grip skeek.
When my country does something that I don't believe in, I don't defend it. Wrong is wrong and patriotism is no excuse for condoning immoral behavior. If you want to be a Stalinist robot, that is your prerogative.
Now here is a question for you. Why is Tibet a threat to China? Are we asked to believe that this tiny nation is a security threat to a nation of one billion people? Under what twisted logic is this being considered? I guess those Tibetans must really be some dangerous hombres with all that praying they do.