News – President Bush, on the first trip of his presidency to Israel, is trying to build momentum for stalled Mideast peace talks and clear up confusion about whether the United States is serious about confronting Iran about its suspected nuclear ambitions.
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"Bush's challenge is to convince skeptical governments that, with just a year remaining in his presidency and Americans deep in the process of selecting his successor, he is willing to devote the time and effort necessary to bridge decades of differences in this troubled region."
HAHAHA.. that's a good one. Peace with Palestinians will happen when Israel seizes to exist. And once Israel is gone, the Palestinians will continue to fight each other. Peace and middle east islam is a contradiction in itself.
Neither side wants peace. Palestinian terror groups keep doing whatever they can to disrupt it and the Israelis start building settlements on Palestinian land every chance they get.
How are they terror groups when they've been thrown off their land, imprisoned for generations in walled camps whose resources are strictly controlled by the Israelis and are subject to constant attacks.
I mean look at the 1948 partition.
That should have been a sign.
There is no Palestine and never was until Israel showed up so how is it "Palestinian territory"? Israel fought four country's for that land. It's theres. They created that whole region through farming and science. If Israel leaves, like the white man leaving the apartheid in Africa, the land Israel built will be ruined and in a couple years it will be desert again.
The resourses you claim are Palestinians are there because of Israel. Without Israel Palestine doesn't exist.
No Palestine? That's a first.
Tell that to the Palestinian Muslims & Christians that were killed or displaced to make room for the country of Israel.
Tell me something - if you're Palestinian living on land on which your family has lived for centuries (dating back to Biblical times), and all your neighbors are Palestinians (Christians, Muslim AND Jews) whose families have also lived their for centuries, doesn't that make the land Palestinian land?
No, it does not... You see, there were many different people living in Palestine for generations. There were Arabs, Jews, Druzes, Cherkesses, Armenians... but no 'Palestinians'. 'Palestinians' as an ethnic entity were invented in the late 1960s. They were defined as EXCLUSIVELY Arabs and started demanding EXCLUSIVE ownership of all lands in Palestine.
Whether there was a Palestinian state or not, wouldn't you agree that there were people who lived there, owned land and houses, and were displaced against their will and without compensation?
If these people did not start a war trying not only to "displace" but to kill others and to push them into the sea they would not be 'displaced' themselves. Nevertheless, they were offered an independent sovereign state and individual compensation based on the losses they've suffered dues to wars their own leaders initiated. Some accepted and received compensation, others refused and did not.
Still, Israeli laws encourage every person who owned land, houses or any other property in Israel to bring his/her claim to Israeli court and demand compensation.
Rubbish. Zionist racist totalitarians from eastern europe planned the ethnic cleansing of palestinian christians and moslems starting in the 1880s. Jews with morals condemned the zionists even then.
Jewish Criticism of Zionism
.. Israel Zangwill, one of Herzl's earliest and strongest supporters, eventually turned against the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine. Ironically it was Zangwill who coined the phrase "a land without a people for a people without a land." It was this phrase that became the potent rallying call for Zionist settlement in Palestine.14
It was not until 1904 that Zangwill realized that there was a fundamental problem with the Zionist program. In a speech given in New York in that year he explained:
There is. . . a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25 percent of them Jews; so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan.. . . This is an infinitely graver difficulty than the stock anti-Zionist taunt that nobody would go to Palestine if we got it. . . .15
Zangwill and many other leading Zionists split from the movement in 1905 ...
http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp
Thinker: You are so full of crap. Papawolf, I will supply you a link that will show the genealogy of the people of Palestine. It is not anything close to what this thinker22 would have you believe. In fact, the Palestinian and the Jewish genealogy is almost identical and traces all the way back to the Canaanites. Unlike thinker, this is supported by scientific study and proven facts. Thinker is very pro-israel, so naturally, most of what he/she says will be very tainted and self serving, and not to be trusted. Enjoy the link: next block
http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_sc...
Thanks for the link. D/L-ed it & will read when (if I ever) I get a chance.
Quick scan, tho, looks VERY interesting.
> Thinker: You are so full of crap.
I understand that this is the most convincing proof you're able to find in order to support your claim that "the Palestinian and the Jewish genealogy is almost identical and traces all the way back to the Canaanites".
If you believe that this is not the case feel free to show me ONE scientific book or article about Palestinian people and their genealogy tracing all the way back to the Canaanites. I'm not even asking you for a book that goes THAT far... just for a book published prior to 1960.
Again, show me ONE book about Palestinians published prior to 1960. Good luck!
Dozens are available - since long before the racist totalitarian zionists from eastern europe dreamed up their ethnic cleansing scheme.
LC Control No.: 33021087
Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Main Title: Sinai and Palestine, in connection with their history/ by Arthur Penrhyn Stanley.
Published/Created: New York : Redfield ; 1857.
Description: 535 p., [5] leaves of plates : ill. ; 23 cm.
thinker:I figured out quite some time ago, that anything I show you, or anyone else shows you, will never be good enough. Your mind is trapped in its own little cesspool and will not see the truths or accept the truths, so showing you anything would be a waste of time. If Moses, with tablets etched by God couldn't convince you people of anything, how could anyone else? Sorry pal, you are forever "stuck on stupid"
As of now you've shown absolutely nothing except insults... and you're right, this is not good enough.
Sandmn,
Thinker & I have had this same discussion many times in various threads here.
As he himself said, "There were Arabs, Jews, Druzes, Cherkesses, Armenians...." What he refuses to admit is that these various groups could be considered "Palestinians" since they have lived in the land known as "Palestine" since Biblical times. Apparently, since there was no actual Palestinian gov't, it was OK for all the non-Jewish people to be driven from their lands or killed to make room for a Jewish state.
He also seems to agree w/the Israeli gov't's desire to make Israel a "Jewish" state giving more rights to any Jew around the world, with or without ties to Israel, than its own non-Jewish citizens.
papawolf:I understand. Thinker is quite the liar and denier when it comes to Israel/Palestine. Thinkers version of history fits them well, it is twisted and malformed and serves only Israel. He overlooks truth with a simple accusation that whatever differs from their opinion must be a lie and then starts this onslaught of demanding ridiculous amounts of conditional proofs. He thinks he can prove his points by denying yours. Very funny individual, really. I give thinker zero credit and zero points for anything he has said. It is simply wind from his mouth and means nothing.
I've noticed that myself.
> What he refuses to admit is that these various groups could be considered "Palestinians" since they have lived in the land known as "Palestine" since Biblical times.
It's not Thinker who refuses to admit it, dear. It's someone else...
Here is the one and only OFFICIAL definition of Palestinians contained in the Palestinian National Charter (Constitution):
http://www.electronicintifada.net/bytopic/histo...
Article 5:
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.
You see, it was enough to be an Arab and to live in Palestine prior to 1947 or to have Arab ancestors who lived there and... Voila! you're a Palestinian.
> ...the Palestinian and the Jewish genealogy is almost identical...
If I'm not mistaken you've told us that the Jews came from Georgia, part of the former Russian Empire. Do you insist that the Palestinians came from Georgia, too?
thinker:I can relay what the dna tests results stated, and that was that the Israelis and the Palestinians shared the same origins, so the answer must be yes, by assimilation.
> ...the answer must be yes, by assimilation.
I see. The people who later started calling themselves Palestinians came to Georgia, assimilated there modifying their DNA in the process and then migrated to the Middle East where they happily lived as Syrian Arabs for about 900 years. Then they've decided to reveal the secret that they were indeed Palestinians to the amazed world.
This is the best version of history you can come with?
Thinker,
The whole point is that the ORIGINAL Jews in the area were & are related to the Palestinians. They were all descended from one peoples. The Jews for which the state of Israel was created was for the Converted Jews from OUTSIDE of Palestine.
So most of the Jews in Israel have a closer connection to Western Europe than to the Middle Eastern Jews.
THAT is what Sandmn's been trying to tell you.
> he Jews for which the state of Israel was created was for the Converted Jews from OUTSIDE of Palestine.
There are very little converted Jews. You see, unlike other religions, Judaism DOES NOT encourage conversions. Those who DO convert are doing it on an individual basis, almost exclusively for the purpose of marriage.
Actually there was no Israel until the UN partitioned Palestine. Why did they do that? Why did the British give up it's mandate over Palestine. Oh yeah, Palestine is what it was called after WWI too. The league of Nations referred to it by name several times as well.
You're a bit off in your dates. The area known as 'Palestine' was named so by the Romans in the 1st Century AD, almost 2,000 years prior to the League of Nations.
"They" partitioned (as a matter of fact, suggested to divide) Palestine because it was the only way to achieve a peaceful solution to the conflict between the Jews willing to have a sovereign state and the Arabs who did not want it to happen.
Political corruption in the US led to the partition of palestine. One of the most shameful acts of America and one which has cost us trillions of dollars in damages.
How It All Began
Truman and Israel
... Key White House advisors ensured the domination of Zionist viewpoints in the highest circles of the Truman Administration...
http://www.counterpunch.org/clark06032006.html
Many Palestinians fled when the entire Arab league attacked Israel in 1948 (telling their Arab brothers that they can come back as soon as the Jews are driven into the sea). Israel had the audacity to win that war.
Of course, few care about all the Jews that had to flee Arab lands (Jews from Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, etc) after Israel was established by the UN, since life for Jews in their native Arab countries was precarious at best.
As Paul Berkowitz writes: "The most succinct summary of the Mid East I have seen: If the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no more violence. If the Jews laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel."
Palestinians keep suffering because they refuse to give up on their dream of eradicating Israel. With peace they could have a much better life in a very prosperous middle east.
Just think about all the Arab oil wealth that could be spent on improving lives instead of tooling up for more war with the West.
Actually zionist ethnic cleansing or christians and moslems began far earlier. As for your propaganda about Arabs telling their population to flee, that has been known to be lies for almost 60 years now.
Didn't the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?
"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action รข;; whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims,"
Arab orders to evacuate non-existent
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.h...
They are terror groups because of the methods used. I understand your argument, one persons terrorist is the other's freedom fighter. I'm not siding with either group, I see merit to both sides argument. In a perfect world the two sides would coexist on the land and be one country working together to benefit all parties concerned. But this isn't a perfect world.
I get angry at both side because whenever peace seems to be possible they both seem to do everything they can to keep it from happening.
> Neither side wants peace. Palestinian terror groups keep doing whatever they can to disrupt it and the Israelis start building settlements on Palestinian land every chance they get.
Can you answer (honestly) the following two questions prior to equating Israel with the Palestinians?
If tomorrow the Palestinians will stop attacking Israelis and will ask for peace negotiations WILL THERE BE PEACE (YES/NO)?
If tomorrow Israel will remove ALL settlements WILL THERE BE PEACE (YES/NO)?
Why do you not simply ask the same things of the two? Do you think either one would honer that deal, I don't, to much hate from years of fighting.
It seems that you're either unable or unwilling to answer my questions. Is it lack of honesty or lack of intelligence?
I'm sorry that that wasn't clear enough for you, no I don't think there would be a maintained peace because of two things. First is Israels need for more room for defence, the have the same mentality as the US. They, as the US think because they think you are a threat they have the right to treat you as such and act preemptively. Next is the hate of the Palestinians for the European Jews now running what was once their land and it's holy shrines.
> no I don't think there would be a maintained peace...
Thanks. I agree with you here.
> ...First is Israels need for more room for defence...
This is not the case. First, Israel will not need "rood for defense" in case there will be peace. Second, Israel was able to successfully defend itself in 1948 and 1967 when it did not have room for defense and there was no peace.
> Next is the hate of the Palestinians for the European Jews now running what was once their land and it's holy shrines.
The only true part here is the hate of the Palestinians. The rest is not:
The land in question never was 'their' land, it belonged to Turkey for the last 600 years. More than 95% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel or came from the Arab states but the Palestinian Arabs hate them no less. The "holy shrines" are being run by the Islamic Religious Authority, the Waqf.
95% can trace their roots back and they have no European ancestors? I really find it hard to believe. And if not for American bailing Israel out more than once we would not even be talking about this as there would not be a Israel.
> 95% can trace their roots back and they have no European ancestors?
I'm afraid that you'll have to ask someone who understand English to explain to you the meaning of the statement below:
More than 95% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel or came from the Arab states.
It's not a shame to not know English if your native language is something else.
I agree with JayDee40, In the past both sides have shown that they are not willing to do what is necessary to achieve peace.
I personally believe that there will never be peace in the Middle East.
Thinker22: "If tomorrow the Palestinians will stop attacking Israelis and will ask for peace negotiations WILL THERE BE PEACE (YES/NO)?
If tomorrow Israel will remove ALL settlements WILL THERE BE PEACE (YES/NO)?"
My answer to both questions would be NO.
Well, apparently, you believe that if tomorrow the Palestinians will stop attacking Israelis and will ask for peace negotiations Israel will REFUSE? How does this agree with the recent history of peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, Mardid, Oslo and Camp David? In all these cases Israel gladly accepted Arab negotiations offers...
I agree, however, that in case Israel will remove the settlements there will be no peace for the simple reason Palestinians will declare it a victory for terrorism.
Let's ask you a question.
If zionists really want peace, why don't they simply allow the palestinians to return and pay them for the damages caused by ethnic cleansing. Why should the world support zionist racism?
>>Well, apparently, you believe that if tomorrow the Palestinians will stop attacking Israelis and will ask for peace negotiations Israel will REFUSE?
That's happened. Not too long ago, an offer was made to stop shelling into Israel for certain concessions - ie, allowing Palestinian workers to be able to get to their jobs. Israel basically said "no."
> That's happened. Not too long ago, an offer was made to stop shelling into Israel for certain concessions - ie, allowing Palestinian workers to be able to get to their jobs. Israel basically said "no."
Well, it did not happen. First, those who made this "offer" (Hamas) also said that they're not responsible for the actions of other Palestinian 'factions' like Islamic Jihad. IJ, on the other hand, immediately declared that shelling would continue. This, of course, means that the "offer" was not worth much. Second, Palestinian workers lost their jobs in Israel more than seven years ago when their leaders decided that the Intifadah was preferable.
First, they only continued shelling after Israel flat-out refused to discuss anything.
Second, I'm not talking about Palestinians with jobs inside Israel. Israel restricts movements of ALL Palestinians from 1 village to another, of into & out of other countries where they may have a job. It also restricts traffic of goods into & out of the occupied territories; so much-needed supplied can not get in & finished goods can not get out. And, finally, Israel controls all of the Palestinian tax revenue, which prevents little things like purchasing of medical supplies, paying teachers, doctors, police, public works employees, etc.