News – The Israeli army on Monday said it will not press charges against officers who ordered the use of cluster bombs during last year's war in Lebanon, brushing off international criticism that the weapons unnecessarily put Lebanese civilians at risk.
It seems to me that the commanders knew (and continue to know) better what was necessary and what was not necessary during the last year's war in Lebanon as well as during any other war. One has to consider that the Hezbollah fighters DELIBERATELY used densely populated civilian areas as their bases and launch cites for their rockets.
One has to remember that it was Lebanon that initiated that war and it's the Lebanese authorities who are responsible for the results.
It's interesting that all posters above attempt to criticize the Israelis for using this or another weapon. At the very same time these posters ignore the Islamic militants who started the war and used their own civilians as shields while launching 13,000 missiles into Israeli cities, towns and villages... and yes, these missiles are much less 'discriminate' than cluster bombs.
Let's have an honest israeli answer your excuses. The facts on the ground are that the zionists have robbed, killed, expelled or put in Warsaw-Ghetto-style concentration camps over 7 million christians and moslems.
Oren Ben-Dor: Who are the real terrorists in the Middle East?
..What exactly is being defended by the violence in Gaza and Lebanon? Is it the citizens of Israel or the nature of the Israeli state? I suggest the latter. Israel's statehood is based on an unjust ideology which causes indignity and suffering for those who are classified as non-Jewish by either a religious or ethnic test. To hide this primordial immorality, Israel fosters an image of victimhood. Provoking violence, consciously or unconsciously, against which one must defend oneself is a key feature of the victim-mentality. By perpetuating such a tragic cycle, Israel is a terrorist state like no other...
Many who wish to hide the immorality of the Israeli state do so by restricting attention to the horrors of the post-1967 occupation and talking about a two-state solution, since endorsing a Palestinian state implicitly endorses the ideology behind a Jewish one.
The very creation of Israel required an act of terror. In 1948, most of the non-Jewish indigenous people were ethnically cleansed from the part of Palestine which became Israel. This action was carefully planned. Without it, no state with a Jewish majority and character would have been possible. Since 1948, the "Israeli Arabs", those Palestinians who avoided expulsion, have suffered continuous discrimination. Indeed, many have been internally displaced, ostensibly for "security reasons", but really to acquire their lands for Jews....
...To sustain that mentality and to preserve an impression of victimhood among outsiders, Israel must breed conditions for violence. Whenever prospects of violence against it subside, Israel must do its utmost to regenerate them: the myth that it is a peace-seeking victim which has "no partner for peace" is a key panel in the screen with which Israel hides its primordial and continuing immorality.
Israel's successful campaign to silence criticism of its initial and continuing dispossession of the indigenous Palestinians leaves the latter no option but to resort to violent resistance. In the wake of electing Hamas - the only party which, in the eyes of Palestinians, has not yet given up their cause - the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank were subjected to an Israeli campaign of starvation, humiliation and violence....
..The truth is there never could have been a partition of Palestine by ethically acceptable means. Israel was created through terror and it needs terror to cover-up its core immorality. Whenever there is a glimmer of stability, the state orders a targeted assassination, knowing well that this brings not security but more violence. Israel's unilateralism and the cycle of violence nourish one another.
Amidst the violence and despite the conventional discourse which hides the root of this violence, actuality calls upon us to think. The more we silence its voice, the more violently actuality is sure to speak.
In Hebrew, elem (a stunned silence resulting from oppression or shock) is etymologically linked to the word almut (violence). Silence about the immoral core of Israeli statehood makes us all complicit in breeding the terrorism that threatens a catastrophe which could tear the world apart.
You don't acknowledge that Israeli's rights to a homeland are equal to that of Palestinians. You are for the destruction of the state of Israel.
> You don't acknowledge that Israeli's rights to a homeland are equal to that of Palestinians. You are for the destruction of the state of Israel.
As a matter of fact the Israeli's rights to a homeland are NOT equal to that of Palestinians. You see, the majority of Israelis are Jews and Israel is the (one and only) Jewish state. Palestinians, on the other hand, are Arabs. There is no Palestinian state yet. If the Palestinian Arabs will agree to have one it will become the 22nd (Twenty-Second) Arab state in the area.
Why are Israel's rights equal? One doesn't usually reward criminals by letting them keep the stolen goods and patting them on the back - especially in the case of armed robbery with murder involved.
I suggest that you are NOT a backer of the basic freedoms and democracy that you enjoy in America. How would you react if america were declared a christian state, you were pushed into a corner of south Texas and you were declared a terrorist if you resisted?
Here is an american jew who HAS understood american democracy.
The End Of Israel?
Religion â;; As a Jewish-American, I know that while it might be scary to some, while it will require a lot of imagination, the end of Israel as a Jewish state could mean the beginning of democracy, human rights, and some semblance of justice in a land that has almost forgotten what that means.
http://religion.propeller.com/story/2007/12/23/...
Arabs run for and get elected to office in the Israeli Knesset. There is an Arab party in Israeli politics. They have free speech rights and speak out loudly against Israeli policy in the territories. Some have even gone so far as to say that the abduction of the IDF soldiers more than a year ago was warranted.
Lastly, under international law when a country is attacked any land that it wins in defense is rightly subrogated to the defender. That is if Egypt, Jordan and Syria did not want to lose territory they shouldn't have attacked Israel.
You don't believe that Israel should have defended itself when attacked by its neighbors?
Sorry Walden, but the "mideast's only democracy" is anything but.
What happens to those who say: Israel should NOT be a "jewish" state. Even if they are members of the Knesset?
Arab-Israeli MKs brand proposed travel ban 'racist'
A number of Arab-Israeli members of the Knesset have spoken out against a proposed new law that would ban them from traveling to most Arab nations....
http://www.imemc.org/article/51217
What happens to citizens of Israel who want to buy land?
Knesset Deprives Arabs of Right to Purchase State Land
... Haaretz's editorial today pretty much says it all: A Racist Jewish State:
The difference between you and I is that while I believe in both Israeli and Palestinian states you desire the destruction of Israel. You highlight all of the bad of Israel and turn a blind eye to the bad of its neighbors.
I don't see the need for setting up countries based on religion and/or ethnicity. Are you prepared to leave America because you are not of the right religion?
Why a Palestinian "State" is a Punitive Construct
Do No Evil â;; The Palestinian state is largely a punitive construct devised by the Palestinians' worst historical enemies: Israel and the US. The intention is to constrain Palestinian aspirations territorially, force them to give up on their moral rights, renege on their history and submit to Israel's diktats on fundamental issues of sovereignty.
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2007/12/15/w...
Do those who have been ethnicly cleansed by zionists have the right to return to their property and homes? The idea that zionists were the "victims" is straight out propaganda, as Oren BenDor points out eloquently above. Here is another honest israeli.
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
A Review
Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. He's Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies. Pappe is an expert on Israel and Zionism and the Palestinians' Right of Return to their homeland, and is a member of the Advisory Board of the Council for Palestinian Restitution and Repatriation (CPRR), an organization declaring "every Palestinian has a legitimate, individual right to return to his or her original home and to absolute restitution of his or her property." ..
cont'd
Pappe is one of Israel's "new historians" whose writings are based material now available from British Mandate period and Israeli archives that provide the most accurate and authentic documented history of Israel before and after it became a state and which debunk myths about the years leading up to the Jewish State's founding and those following it to this day.
His latest book reveals powerful and shocking content, unknown to most in the West and in Israel. He proves from official records how the Israeli state came into being with blood on its hands from lands forcibly seized from its Palestinian inhabitants who'd lived on it for hundreds of years previously. Since the 1940s, they were ethnically cleansed and slaughtered without mercy so their homeland would become one for Jews alone...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=...
Let's let an honest israeli provide the answer to your assertion.
Why Israel Has No "Right to Exist" as a Jewish State
Religion â;; The Annapolis meeting is a con. We should say loud and clear that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. To claim such a right to be racist must come from a being whose victim's face must hide very dark primordial aggression and hatred of all others.
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2007/11/21/w...
...... So let us boldly ask: What exactly is entailed by the requirement to recognise Israel as a Jewish state? ..
... In our world, a world that resisted Apartheid South Africa so impressively, recognition of the right of the Jewish state to exist is a litmus test for moderation and pragmatism. The demand is that Palestinians recognise Israel's entitlement to constitutionally entrench a system of racist basic laws and policies, differential immigration criteria for Jews and non-Jews, differential ownership and settlements rights, differential capital investments, differential investment in education, formal rules and informal conventions that differentiate the potential stakes of political participation, lame-duck academic freedom and debate...
..The upshot is that only by individuating cases of injustice, by extending claims for injustice to all historic Palestine, by fair address of them without creating another injustice for Jews and finally by ensuring the elimination of all racist laws that stems from the Jewish nature of the state including that nature itself, would justice be, and with it peace, possible...
..The non-recognition of the Jewish state is an egalitarian imperative that looks both at the past and to the future. It is the uncritical recognition of the right of Israel to exist at a Jewish state which is the core hindrance for this egalitarian premise to shape the ethical challenge that Palestine poses. A recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state means the silencing that would breed more and more violence and bloodshed...
The Annapolis meeting is a con. As an egalitarian argument we should say loud and clear that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state.
Only a single egalitarian and non sectrarian state over all the whole of historic Palestine will achieve justice and peace.
(Oren Ben-Dor grew up in Israel. He teaches Legal and Political Philosophy at the School of Law, University of Southampton, UK.)
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2007/11/21/w...
"At the very same time these posters ignore the Islamic militants"
Actually, these posters support the bloodthirsty and murderous Arabs, so they're not really ignoring them. That's why they criticize the Israelis for legitimately defending themselves.
Cherev, . I'm starting to think that you don't like Arabs.
Your arguments fall on deaf ears because the bile you spew along with your 'points' is disgusting and bigoted.
When I was a kid in Detroit I lived in a Jewish neighborhood.
I got my butt kicked a few times and was cheated more than once. Even as a child I didn't think all of my neighbors were bullies or cheats, and found the phrase "I've been Jew*ed" repugnant and verboten. LOL!
Then I lived in an African American neighborhood. Got my butt kicked even more, and had my bike stolen. I heard one time in class, "let's get (my name)! He's the only white kid!"... Still, I felt no universal hatred for my tormentors. Nor did I think they were all out to get me.
Kids learn to hate from adults. The rest of us learn to survive.
How many kids do you mentor?
"Your arguments fall on deaf ears because the bile you spew along with your 'points' is disgusting and bigoted."
Well then, don't bother with me and I won't bother with you.
...then there's no chance to grow and learn. Look cherev, I've made plenty of mistakes and bruised and been bruised. Are you always going to seek counsel only from those that hold your point of view?
"...then there's no chance to grow and learn."
Yeah...you're going to learn from someone you think is disgusting and bigoted?
"Are you always going to seek counsel only from those that hold your point of view?"
I'm not going to "seek counsel" from anyone who thinks I "spew bile".
Does that make sense to you?
cherev, . I'm referring to your abrasive words. You speak in absolutes that leave little room for dialog. I've no criticism of you, but yes, I do take issue with many of your statements.
One lesson I've learned with your help, is that I can stand the sight of you, even your voice, when I find the words irritating. That's not enough for me to discount your life.
Or ignore your voice.
"You speak in absolutes that leave little room for dialog."
Sometimes, there is a need for absolutes. Jews need to survive and prosper in peace and security. That's an absolute.
"One lesson I've learned with your help, is that I can stand the sight of you, even your voice, when I find the words irritating."
Your choice of what you've learned doesn't speak well of you.
"That's not enough for me to discount your life."
I get the impression that you would.
"Or ignore your voice."
That's a darn shame. I really wish you would since I don't see anything positive coming out of this dialog.
The use of cluster bombs is wrong. It's wrong for the United States, it's wrong for Israel and it's wrong for others too.
The us of mines is also wrong.
Just say that it is "wrong" to defend yourself when you're attacked. It's simpler and it will deliver your point.
Ok then, it's wrong because they are indiscriminate killers that can lay in wait for untold time until an innocent later tills a field or collects scrap metal to sell at which time they're blown to bits.
> ...it's wrong because they are indiscriminate killers...
Can you give a couple of examples of "discriminate" weapons? You know, weapons that are programmed to distinguish between the good and bad guys?
You don't see a difference between dropping something that goes of and is done versus using ordnance that lay for years until someone plows a field or a child picks it up years later and then it explodes?
These unexploded cluster bombs are spread across fields, olive groves and rooftops. That's different than targeting a car or a building for a particular reason and destroying that target. It's akin to the Romans salting the earth.
> You don't see a difference between dropping something that goes of and is done versus using ordnance that lay for years until someone plows a field or a child picks it up years later and then it explodes?
Of course I do. The fact is that the bombs Israel used in Lebanon WERE NOT designed for delayed explosion.
You have to realize that ANY weapon can FAIL. This includes bombs that do not explode on impact, too.
We disagree. Even though war is hell I think some items should generally be off limits like chemical weapons, white phosphorous, mines, cluster bombs, napalm and nukes.
Do you believe that items like artillery shells, bombs being dropped from aircraft, tanks and grenade launchers should be "within limits"? If so would you move them "out of limits" if I told you that thousands of unexploded shells, bombs and grenades were left in many places from Laos, Korea and Vietnam to Europe and Africa?
I see a difference between munitions. I believe some should be off limits. You do not. We disagree.
You may be in favor of employing torture in interrogations. I am not.
> I see a difference between munitions. I believe some should be off limits. You do not. We disagree.
This is not true. There are munitions forbidden by Geneva Conventions and these munitions are off limits (illegal). They include chemical and biological weapons, certain types of bullets and some other things. Israel did not and does not use any illegal or forbidden weapons. This being said, however, one has to realize that weapons by definition are tools designed to KILL people. One should not be surprised that this is what weapons do.
> You may be in favor of employing torture in interrogations. I am not.
What if a terrorist who just planted a nuclear bomb somewhere is caught and he refuses to tell where this bomb is located? Are you in favor of allowing this bomb to explode killing half a Million innocent civilians as a result?
Not a member? Sign-up today!
122)
When it is one of our "allies" that doesn't care how many innocent women and children they kill, its ok with us (our administration).
Unconscionable ...
Usually people are being killed during a war and those who started the war are usually responsible for its results. Especially if they're using innocent women and children as shields.
Please consider that if "one of our "allies" did not care how many innocent women and children they kill" during the last year war in Lebanon there would be tens of thousands dead and the war would end in a couple of weeks.
c'mon, thinker....the people who are dropping the cluster bombs are Jews. So the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply here. When the Jews defend themselves against the bloodthirsty murderous Arabs, they must interview each potential victim to determine if they are innocent, give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, and make sure they only kill the terrorists that the world considers guilty.....if there are any.
when they stop using suicide bombers and firing rockets into civilians, then I think israel should stop using cluster bombs. Until that happens then war is war and u need everything u can get to win.
It does not work this way. The war is and will be a war as long as at least one side is willing it to continue. This means that even if the Palestinians will stop using suicide bombers and firing rockets into civilians but will continue planting bombs in public places and firing rockets into military bases, for example, Israel will have the right and obligation to use ANY legal means to defend itself.
"Israel will have the right and obligation to use ANY legal means to defend itself."
As far as I'm concerned, they have the right and obligation to use ANY means to defend itself. If the world thinks it's illegal, they can go #$%^ themselves. They certainly don't have a problem with the terrorists using any means at their disposal to murder Jews.
I have to remind you that Israel and Israelis do not live in vacuum and, therefore, have to comply with international laws and regulations. This, however, does not apply to terrorists and terrorist organizations as the world DOES NOT expect them to act as civilized human beings.
"I have to remind you that Israel and Israelis do not live in vacuum and, therefore, have to comply with international laws and regulations."
It appears that I have to remind you that the world has a different interpretation of international laws and regulations than the Israelis do. The Israelis comply with the letter of the law, but the world seems to get up in arms no matter what the Israelis do.
"This, however, does not apply to terrorists and terrorist organizations as the world DOES NOT expect them to act as civilized human beings."
It doesn't matter. As long as the terrorist organizations murder Jews, the world will not give a damn about stopping them.
A very good statement which is to me hard to explain.
As a child I loved reading of history and as I grew older kept it up, one of my childhood books, along with the TV show everyday @ 16:30 was Ivanhoe and the sad story of Ivanhoe's love of a Jewess, so I read into it and was surprised at the brutal treatment the Jews received under Richard 1 (Lionheart)and then started reading more of the French, Russian, Knights Templars, Teutonic Knights and so on of how they were treated. Mila 18 was a book to me that said that the Jews have said "enough is enough" and they get my vote on that.
In the 1980's air strikes were called against Lybia and PLO camps, this I was for also as it was against an organization, but the leader of said organization we give a peace prize.
To me it is the oil and the Arab control of it that has USA befuddled as Israel is an ally but OPEC has much power to do harm
Do crimes in Europe give the right for zionists to do the same in Palestine?
There are over 4 million christians and moslems for which the UN has registered the property stolen from them by zionists. Christians were also wholesale ethnic cleansed by zionists - this is NOT about religion.
Palestinian Christians: An Historic Community at Risk
.. over 50% of Jerusalem's Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. ... in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37% of Christians to 17% of the Muslims. .. Further, approximately 34% of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners....
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informat...