Couple face capital murder charges in Baby Grace death »
Posted by: Bkumm 8 months, 4 weeks ago103 Comments Report this Story
Prosecutors said they have not decided whether to seek the death penalty against the girl's mother, Kimberly Dawn Trenor, and Trenor's husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II. Two-year-old Riley Ann Sawyers was beaten to death and her body was disposed of in Galveston Bay.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
From a different part of the same story:
"In her statement to Galveston authorities, Trenor said the girl was beaten with leather belts, had her head held underwater in a bathtub and then was thrown across a room, her head slamming into a tile floor."
I am strongly opposed to the death penalty. I'd like to know where I can sign up to throw the switch or push the plunger on these two.
What in the world is WRONG with people?
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djn3nunez38 months, 4 weeks ago
I'm not opposed to the death penalty. I'd gladly throw the switch, pull the cord, or plunge the needle in for these two.
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GHOSTWHOWALKS8 months, 4 weeks ago
Why hasn't charges been filed? What is the prosecutor waiting for? They have their confessions and from what i've read there's little doubt of guilt. Pour honey on these two then stake them over a fire ant colony. Save the state some money.
There is no excuse for what these two did to their own child. No mercy. No gee you're mentally ill we'll put you in a place for insane people. None of that ******. Not now, not ever.
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roachcat8 months, 4 weeks ago
The perception of reproducing, breeding, whatever you want to call it, needs to change.
Having a child used to proceed courtship, engagment and marriage. Ideally, a couple should PLAN to have a child. A child is a lifelone, irreversible responsibility. Why do people plan for other events in their life, but make no thoughts to having children?
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AlphaGnosisComment removed: User banned.1 Reply
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DarkWizard8 months, 4 weeks ago
I have no mercy for monsters like this. If they are found guilty they should be put to death.
This has been one flaw in our justice system that I've never agreed with. When parents willfully murder their children they should be put to death.
I have 3 lovely daughters and am a protective father. If it was my ex-wife or her husband that murdered one of my children I would hunt them down myself.
No mercy for monsters.
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nostalgia8 months, 4 weeks ago
This story??
Father killed daughter for not wearing hijab, her friends say
Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=0712111...
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
Isn't that the truth. But, as we can see in this thread the development of the arguments.
It's not that people will disagree on the disgusting, despicable and brutal nature of the crime. But, we will disagree about what caused it and what to do about it. And it will become about that and not about the murder of a two year old little girl, butchered by the hands of the people who were supposed to protect, guide and guard her.
My honor demands that if I saw the father in the commission of this act, I would kill him with my own bare hands. Once the act has been committed, it becomes more difficult.
I'm really, really torn up about this.
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palamaComment removed: User banned.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
It is just unbelievable what some people will do to their children. Now, I must concede that this kind of thing is not new to modern society, thousands if not millions of children have been killed throughout the ages for various reasons including sacrifice (even in the 'Christian' era), abuse and neglect.
But, this time is not then. We're better than this. I don't know what we need to do, but we need to do something to protect the children of our world.
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blinkers8 months, 4 weeks ago
Bkumm, there is an interesting case wending its way through the Japanese justice system right now. A single mother is on trial for murdering 2 children. She killed her 7-year old daughter, then killed a neighbor's little son a month later. Following arrest she has shown little regret, even writing to the murdered boy's parents asking them why they are so upset! ("You have two other children"). The parents of this boy are deeply distressed, the father has gone record saying he hopes she gets the death penalty -- and that he will never be able to rest easily, as long as she's alive. I sympathize 100% with this view and would feel 100% the same had it been my son who'd been murdered.
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nostalgia8 months, 4 weeks ago
I just can't imagine any parent treating a child like this!
Stories like this takes me back almost 40 years to an intense discussion we had in nursing school with our Pediatrics instructor
It was her contention that if abortion became legal, it would lead to a devaluing of the lives of children. Many of us sharply disagreed with her
Now I wonder
Some of her predictions seem almost prophetic now:
Initially abortion would be restricted to early pregnancy
It would slowly be expanded to include late term abortions of normal babies
Child abuse and neglect would increase
Eventually people would come to see kids as "disposable"
I would add that she was certainly by no stretch of the imagination a fundamentalist Christian.
In fact, I saw her throw a Fundamentalist minister out of the Peds unit, telling him to never come back. He had upset a young couple whose baby was born with a fatal defect.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
Bkumm, as you know, one can't be selectively opposed to the death penalty. It's cases like this that test one's convictions on that score.
The mantra is, state-sponsored killing puts the state on the same level as those who committed the crime.
Bloodshed is bloodshed. If the couple is convicted, lock them away and throw away the key.
Having to live out one's life under such circumstances is undoubtedly worse punishment than having one's life taken, and should satisfy anyone's need for justice.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
I know. And know that I am deeply opposed to the death penalty for exactly the reasons you mention.
But, things like this, as you say, strongly test my convictions.
Here's an example as to why. If I were to come across two supposed 'parents', ah, hell, supposed 'humans' acting this way towards their child, I would be within my rights (under the law and morally) to defend that child, indeed, up to and including killing to defend that child. So, if I were willing to kill to defend that child (and, heaven help me, I would), then why should I twitch when the state puts someone to death?
I know it's different, but the dilemma bothers me.
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DarkWizard8 months, 4 weeks ago
Poulenc, Bkumm, and SonOfTheMask,
Herein lies the true underlying conflict of this horrific act; Capital Punishment. For many this is an either or proposition.
I totally disagree with the correlation between individuals or groups who murder others and the execution(s) of said murderers being put in the same light. Those that willfully commit atrocious acts of murder on the innocent do not deserve to live with those of us that respect life. Life imprisonment is too good for these monsters. Many times they end up killing others in prison unless they are in solitary confinement. No, the death penalty does have its function in a civilized society and it is for the monsters of society that it applies.
Recently, Saddam Hussein was hung for his crimes against his own people and against the international community. I did not see anyone fighting to stop this. I know that some of you will never agree that the death penalty has a place in civilized society. I respect that.
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lvrofwolves8 months, 4 weeks ago
Bkumm-because if you were defending the child at that moment, that's what it is, defending. If it's thought out and the danger been removed from that child, it's no longer defense, it's punishment.
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blinkers8 months, 4 weeks ago
I find myself in agreement with that.
Three prisoners were recently executed on the same day, in different parts of Japan, for separate killings. All were multiple killers, all had multiple offenses, and none showed contrition. Each had proven decisively they were unfit for civilzed society. The executions received very very little condemnation within Japan and were widely perceived as "justice served". It seemed that way to me too.
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gamahuche8 months, 4 weeks ago
Poulenc - well said and I'm glad you're getting plus votes though your comment is the first which breaks the "revenge and kill" pattern.
I'm sure that I feel as sick and angry as anyone about this atrocious story which looks about as bad as it gets.. And I understand the instinct to hit back, kill them, fry them, whatever.
But does that revenge actually do any good to anyone?
In olden days these executions were great public spectacles though eventually the thrill factor would diminish. During the French Revolution cycle of public executions it was de rigeur for women to bring their knitting with them.
The terrible fact is that this story is being repeated in some variant every hour of every day somewhere and we could, if we chose spend every waking hour on tracking these stories and calling for revenge.
I agree completely with Poulenc's last sentence and for me its the only tenable proposition.
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gamahuche8 months, 4 weeks ago
That does not mean that I might not WANT to rip someone who damaged my nearest and dearest apart with my bare hands in blind rage but it does mean that I hope that someone would stop me if I tried to.
The judicial solution should be one that speaks to the crime but judicial execution, which is, in the end, cold-blooded revenge, is in reality NOT a dish that tastes better cold, unless sadistic satisfaction is your favourite daily special.
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lvrofwolves8 months, 4 weeks ago
I agree with alot of things said, it's not that I disagree, but it does lead to other questions. Like..do you think in Hitlers case sitting in prison for the rest of his life would have been better for everyone , instead of hanging the bast ard? (had we had that option)
for some sitting in prison for the rest of their lives is more a punishment, for others it's not.
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lvrofwolves8 months, 4 weeks ago
If they are on death row, they get both! the years and years of sitting there knowing what they have done, plus knowing one of these days they'll be walking the line. These 2 deserve both!
I'm real edgy about the death penalty, but the thing is, that people that are put to death are treated very humanely, it's not like they are killed in the same manner that they murdered,tortured and passed out agony so freely. They are 'put to sleep' as humanely as some put their beloved pets to sleep.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
There's probably a way to EXPLAIN why the child was treated so brutally, in terms of human psychology, but UNDERSTANDING that treatment--trying to square it with what we'd like to think people are beyond doing--is something else entirely.
We're talking about trying to "rationalize" extreme sadism; from the moral point-of-view, it can't be done.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
Nostalgia, above (and stop me before I post again!), I believe you were right the first time around.
People who do the sorts of things this couple did aren't motivated by a "decreased regard for the lives of children" based, even partially, on the availability of legal abortion; that's just too abstract.
They do it because of their particular psychologies, pertaining to the unique and intimate circumstances of nature and nurture that formed them emotionally.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
I agree. I don't think abortion has devalued human life. As I said this kind of thing has happened before, but we hear about it now, almost instantly.
I'm not sure what's devalued human life, but something certainly has. Perhaps it has something to do with the number of humans on the planet.
Oh, and post away!!
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
I hear you. And we both know that it is virtually impossible for the state to be fair in the application of justice. Our system simply doesn't allow for such a thing. Which is one of my primary objections to the death penalty. Of course, I am also morally opposed to such a thing as I do not believe that the state should take a life to show that taking a life is wrong. It's kind of like hitting your child to show your child that hitting is wrong after a certain age. That isn't to say that a swat on the hind end isn't sometimes needed, especially at a young age. Reason is not something that is strong in small children, they have difficulty connecting cause and effect. But, I digress.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
I understand where you're coming from, but like almost everything, it isn't that simple.
I hate what these two 'people' did to their child, but I oppose the death penalty. It puts me in a difficult position.
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blinkers8 months, 4 weeks ago
Yes, Shadowolf. The victim's nearest and dearest deserve closure. I'm not sure how I would be able to continue living knowing that my child's/children's killer was comfortably ensconced in prison somewhere, with basic needs guaranteed AND with the prospect of being as free as me, one day.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
Interesting point. One time, when living in Charleston S.C., I had a twelve year old boy pull a knife on me in the service hallway of a mall. He demanded my money and told me he'd 'stick me' if I didn't comply. Obviously, I took the knife away from him (dicey proposition, I would not recommend this) and snatched him up and took him to security. But, what if I had been a ninety year old lady (he had to have been desperate or on something to assault a full grown 23 year old man)?
Tough call.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
So, Shadow, are we talking about anyone under the age of consent? That would include many teenagers.
At what point do human beings become responsible, in the eyes of the law, for their actions? (I know there are laws about this, but I'm bringing it up to make a point, however indirectly.)
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DarkWizard8 months, 4 weeks ago
Shadowolf,
That was one of the examples I was thinking of when I heard this story. Another was the woman who took her young children into the bathroom and smashed their heads with a stone. These are the stories I am referring to when I talk about monsters.
The reason these situations make me sick to my stomach is that these are innocent trusting children. Children that are giving their lives up because they have no way of defending themselves and some wouldn't anyway because of their love and trust for the parent killing them. Now, if others can live with allowing a monster like that to go on living afterwards, that's your decision. I have no mercy for this ultimate betrayal of trust and love.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
BK, if you're asking ME, the charge would depend on the child's age, no?
Is a four-year-old playing with a gun it has grabbed and is waving at me as threatening, from the legal POV, as a twelve-year-old doing the same?
As you suggested in one of your posts, young children can't be expected to link cause and effect as well as older children.
Once children can understand their actions and the consequences thereof, it seems to me that defending oneself against them, if they threaten one's life, even if it means murder, is justifiable, if not a nice proposition, so to speak.
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
I think that's true to some extent and it leads to an interesting question.
A four year old, waving a gun around and pointing it at people like he saw on television or in a video game (it shames me to admit that my 20 month old already walks around the house with his water pistol saying, "Boom, boom"), is not in the same category as a twelve year old with an assault rifle demanding money. Obviously. But, if the four year old shoots you, you're just as hurt or dead. However, the INTENT (not shouting, why doesn't Propeller let us bold or italic words?) is the key to the question and whether or not the child had the means to form the intent.
In my experience a twelve year old has that capacity. A five year old does not. Of course, it also depends on the child.
What a fine mess you've gotten us into, Ollie. LOL>>>
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
Agree, agree, BK. When I was small, eons ago, I saw a movie called "The Bad Seed," a 50s cautionary tale about how some children--well, one child, the youngster of the title--are just low-down, bone-deep EVIL, by definition, as it were.
I saw it again recently (don't ask), and though it was something of a giggle, thought: well, is it so? That is, are some kids (or adults) just BAD?
Haven't made up my mind about that one--have you?
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
Ah, you know I love a philosophical discussion.
Are some people just born 'evil'? I don't think so. I know that each of us carries within ourselves the capacity for good and evil. But, there are some people that have mental issues or issues with the way they were raised that lead to their being 'evil'. By the same token, some children raised in environments of extreme depredation come out on the other side the epitome of virtue.
What leads us to temptation? What can deliver us from evil? Only the power that exists within each of us and our society as a whole to remain true to justice, liberty and equality. Only that can free us. Only that can save us.
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DarkWizard8 months, 4 weeks ago
gamahuche,
I think you make an excellent point. How indeed can we dismiss a proclivity for violence?
Of course, this could open a "Pandora's Box" for many other lines of thinking as to what "mental deformities" are. I'm talking about the line of thinking that got Dr. Watson in trouble for his gene to intelligence link. Separating good science from bigoted hypotheses will be key in such studies (as always).
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2sidestoeverything8 months, 4 weeks ago
What can anyone was say this is so sad very sad. :`~(
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
Yeah, well, first I think we've got to separate the moral from the mechanical, as it were.
So, functionally, and as you suggest, we're talking about brain issues, both organic and...whatever the opposite of that is.
So people can be crazy-homicidal and that state can be a function of brain damage/chemistry (which all THOUGHT is also a function of--of brain CHEMISTRY, that is).
So there are many ways to end up "evil," which is to say, compelled to do severely anti-social things.
So people born with the right--which is to say, the WRONG--brain set-up can be functionally "evil" by definition: born "evil." (I'm putting aside developmental "evil," which might result from being treated sadistically as a baby and/or child.)
Are you following me? Am I?
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Bkumm8 months, 4 weeks ago
What? Who said that? Must be the voices in my head. LOL>>> Okay, not really funny.
I think that your organic component is true, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a person will end up 'evil'. People are all goofy like that. If you take two people with essentially the same brain chemistry malfunction (can we call it that?) and place them in identical environments, one will end up becoming Ted Bundy and the other will end up being Mister Rodgers (he didn't do anything wrong, did he?). That's just the way it works.
However, in the main, I would agree that brain chemistry is a huge part of it, but nurture is also a huge part of it. And in that part, at least, society must take some responsibility.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
And Mask, way above: "Capital punishment is not murder it is a response to murder."
So what is it when the state...terminates the life of someone who turns out not to have committed the crime for which he or she receives the ultimate punishment?
A goof?
A riddle: when is murder not murder?
Answer: When the state says it isn't.
Comfortable with that?
Or, I kill someone in response (your word/idea) to a murder, even though my life hasn't been threatened. Have I committed murder?
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SonOfTheMask8 months, 4 weeks ago
No, no, no, Poulenc. Let's stay with the mantra you provided us. It essentially asserts that when "the state" engages in capital punishment it puts the state on par with the murderer. That is not true in any way...EVEN if the state executes in innoncent person. Why? Because the intent of the state was to exact punishment for a heinous crime. A murderer commits a heinous crime. Very different.
Now, if you want to discuss when capital punishment is merited and when it is not...that would be a whole other line of discussion. In this case, unless the parent's are judged mentally incompetent, they not only committed murder but they committed it upon an utterly helpless child...the mother's OWN child. They violated a parent's duty to protect and cherish their child in the most awful way possible.
Capital punishment works for me if the jury finds them guilty.
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gamahuche8 months, 4 weeks ago
"Because the intent of the state was to exact punishment for a heinous crime"
This doesn't cover deliberate set-ups and railroading and making an innocent party the fall-guy. These are all real-life occurrences and the one undeniable fact is that dead is dead and a wrong of this kind cannot be undone.
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SonOfTheMask8 months, 4 weeks ago
"Or, I kill someone in response (your word/idea) to a murder, even though my life hasn't been threatened. Have I committed murder?" You know the answer, I'm not sure why you'd even bring this up. The state has the duty to the citizen to provide law and order. Only in cases of self-defense, defense of another, or as an agent of the state (plice/military) acting in their assigned capacity would someone not be charged as a murderer if they intentionally killed someone.
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Poulenc8 months, 4 weeks ago
Mask: "...the intent of the state was to exact punishment for a heinous crime. A murderer commits a heinous crime. Very different."
Capitol punishment is an optional response to a grave crime; it's not mandatory and/or inevitable. Thus the choice to kill someone by the state is just that--a choice. As such, it represents (or comes to stand for) a moral position.
As I've said previously, I believe that that moral position isn't: that its enactment puts the state on the same level as the murderer.
(And now I REALLY must do some work here at work....)
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SonOfTheMask8 months, 4 weeks ago
It is optional, but even when capital punishment is enacted, it does not put the state on the same level as the murderer. It is faulty logic to compare the state's executioin of a convicted criminial with a criminal's murder of an innocent person. And, if you say "ah ha!" what if the state executes an innocent person, my reply is that the intent was still wholly dissimilar from a murderer. The argument that it is better to never use capital punishment due to the chance of executing an innocent is not the same thing as asserting that the state engages in murder by using capital punishment.
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gamahuche8 months, 4 weeks ago
SOM - are you really suggesting that that NEVER happens..
In order to believe that you would have to be certain that every adminstration was completely free of corruption, of racial prejudice of undue influence, that every trial was flawless and that all defendants have competent and diligent lawyers..
The bar is simply too high! I have personal experience of being convicted for something that I didn't do - it was a minor matter of being arrested at a demonstration and the policeman saying I did one thing and I and myself and 3 witnesses, a priest, a civil servant an 80 tear-old "butter wouldn't melt in her mouth" Quaker grandmother saying the opposite. The magistrate didn't even look up from his papers to listen to the witnesses. "2 months."
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Bkumm
Ex-Navy, degrees in History and Marketing and Management.
Socially liberal, fiscal conservative.
Just following my own brand of atheistic spiritualism.
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